Travels: June 30th – Etosha Here We Come

Sand CastleWe had to make an early start as today we had to drive from Swakopmund to Etosha…roughly 600 km. Did we get an early start? No. We woke up around 8, had a nice breakfast while planning our travels and readied our music collection. We knew we had to drive north so that was a start. We found out that the C34 was our road and it took us up the Skeleton Coast. It has come to be known as the Skeleton Coast due to pirates that inhabited the area during the 15th century. You see, these pirates loved building sand castles and the coast had a ton of sand. Due to the high salt content in the sand the castles were able to withstand centuries of mother nature’s abuse. Today, some small mounds of sand remain where once whole sand castle cities used to flourish. It’s pretty amazing. Now, if you believed what I just told you then you should also know that if you donate $50 to me right now then one of your wishes will come true. For each additional $50, another wish will come true.

So the Skeleton Coast is really named that because there is nothing there. Rock and sand. It’s a bit unsettling to drive through, but nevertheless a site to see. We decided to take a detour to see the Cape Cross Seal Colony. We paid the tourist fee and arrived at the coast. Thousands and thousands of smelly, cape fur seals were there to happily greet us with their goat-like cries. It might not seem like a big deal, but this was one of my favorite parts of the trip. I could have happily spent many days there just watching how their colony works, but we had some elephants and lions to see….besides, the gates to the park close at sun down and we had quite a drive ahead of us.

After a little back tracking we were on our way to Khorixas.  I don’t think we could have seen more nothing if we had asked for it, however it was strangely appealing.  The tricky thing with having no end is sight is trying to keep your speed down on the gravel roads.  This all becomes easier when you go over 100km/h and the tail of your truck starts to swerve a bit after hitting some rough patches.

Shannon got her first taste of the real Namibia in the small town of Uis as we stopped for some much needed bread and fake cheese.  You can pick up some nice colored crystals there if you were wondering what there is to do in Uis.

Outside Khorixas we stumbled upon the tar roads again and sailed smoothly to our final destination in Etosha some hours later.  It was a long drive, not filled with much excitement, but sometimes that’s just the way things go.

Travels: June 29th – Desert Explorers

After a nice, relaxing morning in Walvis Bay we decided to take things up a notch…at least our travel agent felt like we should. Next up was Desert Explorers ATV excursions. Shannon and I started things off right with a bag of Mild Chili and Sour Cream Doritos and a can of Fanta, oh yeah. We were given our extremely white and large helmets and laughs followed. We were given the choice of ATV type: Baby Bear, Mama Bear and Totally Sweet Papa Bear editions. Shannon naturally moved to the choice of wussing out Baby Bear style while I moved to the extreme. Apparently, she chose the small version due to her small hands…or so she tells me. (I only write this because she’s sitting right to next me)  I may be embellishing a bit, but you get the idea.

The trip was an hour long, which was more than enough, and we went out into the sand dunes. It was actually a prettty good time, but the older people on the trip made it difficult to go as fast as I wanted.  Who slows down when they are going down a giant sand dune, honestly?

The views were great but something was lost by riding around on a motor vehicle.  Still a good time.  I think next time I’ll bring my mog, an android and a princess.

Travels: June 29th – Let’s Climb a Dune

On our return trip from the Mola Mola Dolphin cruise we couldn’t help but be amazed by the sand dunes. So what else could we do but go and climb them? Nothing is the answer, so climb them we did. Climbing sand dunes is harder than it looks. (see video) The view at the top was well worth the huffing and puffing. The best part was running down the sand dune, I highly suggest you try this if for no other reason than to just say that you did…just don’t forget your comb like we did.

Travels: June 29th – Dolphin Cruise

A short drive south of Swakopmund is Walvis Bay. The drive is ocean on one side and desert on the other.  Thanks to the helpful ‘Sand’ sign, we knew we were surrounded by sand and not brown sugar.

I’m still wondering why anyone would ever build a town here.  While I pondered life’s mysteries we arrived in the industrial town of Walvis Bay.  It’s not the prettiest of places from what I could tell, but was home to the Mola Mola Dolphin Cruise.  I’m not sure why I let our tour guide talk us into this, but I figured it’d be something different and besides they promised oysters and champagne.  We arrived early and were able to enjoy a drink by the bay as we marveled at that size of the pelicans.  They’re much cleaner than their American relatives and about twice as big…a little pink too.

We set off aboard the Gambit around 9am and really didn’t know what to expect other than champagne and oysters.  I was naturally a little afraid of seasickness, but calm waters all around were a good sign.  Our guide for the day, Wally, began his schpeel in both English and German (i think).  He informed us that we’d be taking a tour around the bay and having some seals on the boat.  Ok…so we’re thinking they just sit on the back or something.

First up we were entertained to pelicans eating from Wally’s hand as the boat was moving.  He’d whistle up a storm and they’d all come in hoards.  Pretty cool, but not that cool for those that got pooped on.  I would save that for myself until later.

Next up were some seals.  They stopped the boat, opened the back gate, everyone stood on the perimeter of the boat leaving the middle seating area open and onboard came a seal by the name of Googles. He came all the way on the boat and quickly made ready for some fish.  This was pretty great and completely unexpected.  We were able to feel the seal’s hair and how it was dry underneath.  We could see the nails it had on its flippers that it used to scratch itself.  We were loving every second of it and I quickly spotted a second seal about to board and noticed it was a bit bigger.  In fact, it was way bigger! (see video)  Robby was his name and he brushed Googles aside as it was his turn to shine.  I felt a little like Jeff Corwin as I repeatedly said the same thing over and over again in sheer amazement…’Look how big it is.’  Robby spent the rest of the time posing for photos with Shannon, pushing people around, including me, and not wanting to get off the boat.  Fun times with Robby.

Because there is so much to tell and the rest isn’t too important I’d like to make some highlighting comments.  We saw a seal colony, learned about the oyster industry in Walvis Bay, saw some dolphins as we braved the waters outside of the bay (i did not get sick thank you very much), were treated to the sights of a guano platform built by an ingenious man and finished with our champagne and oysters.  The seal colony was a hoot because if you’ve never heard a seal before they sound a little like a sick goat…so basically hysterical.  Shannon and I made our best impressions. (see video)  The oysters were delicious, which is something I never thought I’d say, but nevertheless were great with some tabasco and champagne to wash them down.

The three hour boat ride was definitely one of the highlights of our trip and would recommend it to anyone as a must on your journey around Namibia.  The afternoon we had some ATV riding to do in the desert so we’ll see if that can match the dolphin cruise.

Raining in Windhoek

Raining in my hotel room that is. It was a nice surprise to see so much water…too bad it was all over my bed. New room please. Oh…no water because of a pipe burst? That’s ok. I wasn’t looking forward to a hot shower since I haven’t had one in a month or more.

So I’m down in Windhoek awaiting Shannon’s arrival on Thursday morning. Planning on trying to get some work done with the Ministry as well as taking care of a few personal purchases. New bike seat (that fell off), new bike wheels (that don’t bend), new bike pedals (that aren’t cracked)…you get the idea.

I also met with a guy today about my stuff from Kenya. Yep, it’s now in Namibia. I’m about to be reunited, but not without paying about $120 USD. What? Apparently, it’s quite expensive to have customs hold onto my things and then I get to pay this gentleman 500 namibian dollars ($60USD) just to help with the paperwork…truly insipiring.

Otherwise things are good. Going to stuff myself full of Indian food for lunch and then off to buy new sandals, mine snapped, among other things. I’ll be back in Opuwo next week with plenty of tales from Shannon and my safari. Talk to you then.

The Plateau

So it’s Friday night in Opuwo and I’m hanging out with Ed and Jeff from Peace Corps.  We get in some games of poker…I’m terrible…and beer pong…can’t lose.  They say they’re going out to the plateau tomorrow to do some camping so I’m naturally in for this.  It’s just outside of town and I see it every day I walk out my door.  Whenever I see a mountain/hill enough times I naturally have to climb/hike it.  We’re leaving by 10am, which sounds reasonable.  The night ends up going later than originally planned and Ed and Jeff have literally high tailed it out of the bar.  I get some sleep after a late dinner.

I wake up and contemplate just laying in bed all day with how good it felt.  No.  Must get up.  I head to Ed’s around 10am and sit around for an hour as he and Jeff get ready.  They’re locals already.

11am we’re off and walk through a part of Opuwo that I haven’t seen yet.  I’m amazed at two things.  One, why I hadn’t seen this part of two yet considering how small the town is.  Two, how much poorer this part of town is…I’ll try and get some pics some time.  

We head out of the town along the road.  The three white guys with backpacks.  Staring is at a maximum.  Ed serves as the guide as he has done this once before.  We just pick a path and head into the bush.  Goat paths everywhere, but they often lead us astray.  We are forced to make our own path.  See one snake as we walk through the high grass.  We discuss the misfortune that a snake bite would bring.  I’m the only one wearing actual shoes.  

The hike up the hill took about an hour and a half which was much quicker than we anticipated.  So much so that we really had nothing to do.  We found a campsite with few rocks.  You see, this is because I have no sleeping pad so the ground is my mattress for the night.  We build a big fire.  We sit around for a while.  It is now about 1pm.  Ed does have a Playboy, Christmas 2001…I laugh.

Ed and Jeff brought about 3 pounds of meat and veggies each.  The spent the afternoon figuring out the best way to cook their food while admiring miss December.  Again, I laugh.  They can’t quite figure out the best way to cook the food and be able to get it out once it is done.  Handles, rock cooking, tshirts are all discussed.  About 2 hours later they both eat more than is healthy while I enjoy my trusty tuna fish steaks.  Lemon Peppercorn is much better than Mesquite, but still not as good as Ginger Soy.  They both pass out by the fire.  

Marshmallows come soon thereafter and we enjoy Kraft’s Coconut and Banana Cream marshmallows.  I’m still not sure why they don’t just make plain marshmallows here. 

We enjoy a sunset.  I fall asleep by the fire.  We end up all going to sleep at 7pm.  I’m amazed I can fall asleep.  The night was good, thicker sleeping bag made this more enjoyable than my night in Onjuva.  The ground was hard, but surprisingly good on my back.  I woke up at 2am feeling refreshed as it was a normal night sleep.  I went back to sleep and got up around 7.  Jeff made a great point, waking up while camping is great.  Love the early morning crisp air.

We packed up.  Found our goat path and were back in Opuwo in about an hour and a half. It was before 9am and I had already accomplished more than I usually do in half a weekend day.  I later confess that I forgot my sunglasses at the campsite, Jeff had done the same thing.  They’ll be there for next time.

Onjuva – Day Two

Onjuva – Day Two

So night time hits and the new tent is up, my new sleeping bag is rolled out, my belly is full of good food and sleep is right around the corner.  I notice it’s a little chilly out, but the sleeping bag should cure that soon enough.  Crawl into my bag and off to sleep time.

2 hours later.  Ok…probably shouldn’t have had so much water to drink right before bed.  Stumble out to relieve myself.  Is there anything worse than getting out of a tent in the middle of the night?  Everything has to go back on.  It’s noticably colder as I make use of the nearby riverbed and take the moment to do a little star gazing.  Back to bed, but I think I’ll keep my pants on…oh, and I think I’ll add that longsleeve shirt.  Not really much warmer, but I’d rather worry about sleeping.

I spend the next amount of time waking up every 5 minutes and rolling over trying to keep myself warm.  Nothing’s working.  Hooded sweatshirt is now designated as my foot blanket.  Feet feel better.

More in and out of sleep and notice my noggin is cold.  I sleep inside my sleeping bag…full body.

More in and out of sleep.  Ok…I’m going to die out here.  What do I have?  Nothing…good.  Ah…my tent’s rainfly…bust that sucker out!  I start by putting on my lower body.

More in and out of sleep.  Rainfly over my whole body.  Tolerable.

6 am I see some sun hit my tent.  Sleeping a little better as things heat up.

7am I’m finally getting comfortable and it’s time to wake up.  Awesome night. Lesson learned.  It gets cold in Namibia during the winter.

The morning started with some delicious instant oatmeal, some peacocks hanging out outside my tent and a hike to the marble mine.  Just out of the camp there is a white marble mine which is pretty spectacular up close; blinding. (see pictures) Visited the chinese camp and said ni hao (hello) a couple of times.  These men are here as miners and no one really knows why.  I’ve added this to my list of things to do.  

The rest of the morning was spent inhaling diesel fumes from a generator, watching the chinese men watch us, snake spotting and bar planning for the campsite.

The drive home.  Somehow this drive took 2 hours longer than the drive on the previous day.  The sites were still as amazing, but the lack of sleep made things a little less enjoyable.  The giraffes were a nice touch.  No elephants again.  

Highlight of the trip: kids throwing stones at our car.  John told Penny to turn around as this is apparently a huge problem in the area.  Kids want sweets and if white tourists don’t stop the kids will throw rocks.  I spot them down a side road and we go after them.  We drive up to their house.   John gets out.  The kids see that it’s not just white tourists, but a big black man and they run away very quickly.  John explains to the old Himba man the predicament and a young girl comes over.  Both John and the old man talk to the girl.  Next thing we know, the old man is wipping the girl with a thin stick.  I don’t think she’ll be throwing any more stones.  The sunset was nice though.

We get back into Opuwo about an hour later and glad I went.

Onjuva – Day One

Onjuva is roughly 200km, 6 hours, west of opuwo. It is pretty much in the middle of nowhere…actually, let’s not be ambiguous, it IS in the middle of nowhere. That’s what makes it pretty special though. I can honestly say that I’ve never experienced so many breathtaking views in one journey. Let’s see how this trip went:

Saturday morning I woke up with a bit of a headache from Sammy’s going away. It was 7:45am and I was ready for a trip. Penny arrived promptly at 8:45 and we were off to pick up her boss and wife. Should have known better in thinking we would leave on time. We leave Opuwo by about 10:30. Due west.

About 2 hours into the drive I start getting hungry and reach for my trusty Sweet Chili Pepper Doritos. I follow this up with 2 PB&Js and a granola bar. The views are starting to hit. Wow. (See Pictures) We spend some time chasing some elephants that we may have never actually seen.

3 hours in there are big rocks in the road. Commonly used as a way to make people stop thereby allowing time for them to be robbed, I happily jump out to move them. We were not robbed…more to come on this later.

4 hours in Ostriches. Man are they big. Even their babies are big. We chase them down the road as Penny worries she has ruined the family as they get split up. I stick my body out the window and get some photos and video and love every second of it.

The drive continues and things just keep getting better. We stumble upon an Oryx, some Springbok, more Ostriches, and Sting’s fields of gold. (See Pictures)

When asking ‘Are We There Yet?’, John, Penny’s boss, points to the far mountain ranges and explains that’s where the Marble Campsite is. It’s pretty far and it’s 5 hours. I have now consumed a Grapetiser, a Fanta, 2 liters of water, a whole giant bag of Doritos, 2 PB&Js, a granola bar, some biscuits (cookies) and some jerky which may or may not have required cooking before consuming. I feel wonderful and my back thanked me for the ride.

When arriving at the campsite, John instructs Penny to ignore the shiny new sign that says ‘This Way to the Marble Campsite’ and tells her to go to the left because it’s ‘the way.’ We encounter numerous road closed signs, some boulders in our way and we’re clearly going the wrong way. We make it to the camp via riverbed only to find that this way is not passible and all of the campsite workers stare. John makes a hasty getaway and Penny is annoyed. John later responds, ‘You were the Driver.’

Dinner is prepared by yours truly with a foil bag full of sweet potato, red pepper, tomatoes and onion. Delicious. Remember my affection for packaged Bumblebee Tuna steaks? Mesquite flavor not so good. A little time by the fire, lots of water and it’s off to bed. More to come…

On the Road Again

That was a short stay in Opuwo.  What gives?  I’m off to Outjo and Khoraixas (sp?) to do some surveying of the hospitals there.  I found this out this morning.  Here’s to flexibility.  One huge perk…I think i’m getting a bike on wednesday 🙂

Return to Opuwo

Had another rip roaring great drive back to Opuwo on Saturday.  Sure…we didn’t get a flat tire…run out of gas…or have 9 people in the car, but it still managed around 10 hours to get from one end to the other.  The drive was filled with cows jumping out of the bushes in an apparent attempt to commit suicide, colleagues yelling at one another for hours on end about relationships, life saving ipods, wimpy burgers (much better here than in kenya), back pain (inevitable), roads made for and by people who love seeing how many bumps it takes to knock your wheels off and the occasional head nod doze off.  I’m back though and happy to be here…too many people in Windhoek.  If there’s one thing that being here will do it’ll make me hate crowds.

JB Travels to Windhoek

3 am wake up to mosquito who has super speed and unable to kill after numerous attempts

4 am actually get out of bed

4:30 am Find out that the water is off so no shower

4:45am Step out front to find 8 people waiting to pile into small car

5am Depart

7:30am Punctured Tire

8am Spare on and we’re off…for a bit

9 am Run out of gas due to a ‘miscalculation’

10:20am Gas comes

11am Reach Outjo and get to get a small bite

12pm Stop to get tire fixed

1pm Waiting for people to do some shopping…stop at 3 places..come on people!!!

2pm Dozing in car but can’t get comfortable as one butt cheek is apparently dead

3pm I can’t take this anymore just as we enter Windhoek proper

4pm Find out windhoek proper is pretty big and drop some folks off at 2 hospitals…wander to find a man to give him a piece of mail…definitely could have waited until tomorrow

4:30pm Arrive at guest house…my room has three beds on account of them being fully booked.  Massive amounts of pee on toilet seat is always a welcome surprise.

5pm Eat food and rest my back

Travels to Opuwo

Penny George behind the wheel, we set off this morning from Tsumeb around 9am and arrived into Opuwo at exactly 5pm.  There is a whole lot of nothing running around in northern Namibia…oh wait…billions of goats and cows…they’re there.  One of their favorite pass times is to cross the road just as you approach…it’s fun.  One trick that farmers like to play on their livestock is to tie their front two feet together and put a bell around their neck…those crazy farmers.  

We were able to see some of the remains of the flooding that turned northern Namibia into a disaster area over the past few months.  You wouldn’t have guessed it now as it seems to have changed everyone’s professional title to fisherman extraordinaire.  I really don’t know how it’s possible to pull so many fish out of water by the side of the road…no joking.  All the water seems to have come from Angola and brought all their fish with it…reports of crocodiles as well.  

We stopped for some supplies along the way per Penny’s suggestion.  Things in Opuwo cost more and aren’t as readily available.  I bought the basics…couldn’t resist picking up some of South Africa’s finest sauces…Mrs. H. S. Ball’s Chutney.  Everything else seems pretty trivial next to this.  I get KFC in hopes of treating myself, but somehow they managed to ruin it so I was sad…happy when I realized I had some Simba chips flavored by…you guess it…Mrs. H.S. Ball’s Chutney.  I’m not joking on this one.

 

The ride was relatively painless minus my awesome back and constant sweating…even caught a nap before hitting the gravel roads.  Learned the difference between England and Britain…don’t make this mistake…kind of knew this before, but just make sure you know exactly.  Also found out that Penny really likes Bob Dylan…I just don’t know how I feel about that.

Tree Sleeper

The Tree Sleeper campsite is located in Tsintsabis which is about 60km north of Tsumeb. A fellow volunteer has been responsible for rehabing the site and I have to say he has done an excellent job so far. We arrived and setup our tents…Mark and I shared a tent…looked pretty small, but was a breeze to setup. We all retreated to the tree stand and shared some libations (gin and tonic) and sang some tunes…apparently the drinks are a useful way of avoiding malaria I am told by my british vols…it’s somewhat true. Dinner that night consisted of much better local food than we were served earlier in the week. We had some Kudu (basically some form of antelope type animal), some Pap (corn meal porridge), vegetable stew, breadsticks on actual sticks, roasted corn and some bananas with chocolate. All was excellent this time around…one form of Kudu kind of tasted like that beef jerky stuff you buy in a tobacco tin…both great in theory but not so much in practice. The rest of the night was filled with frequent trips to the men’s room and sneaky farts…did I mention I love camping?

The next day was great because I was the last person to wake up by about an hour and everyone had already eaten. Hurried cleansing and breakfast led to the Bushman’s Hike…this is where I shine. Well…it wasn’t exactly a hike as more of a walk…well…a five steps and listen trip. My initial impression was not the best, but when they taught me how to snare chickens in the wild I was sold. This was followed by how to catch elephants and how to tell the difference between a nice lion and one who wants to eat things that rhyme with me. As Dylan pointed out…just have to run faster than the guy next to you. Traditional fire making skills were shown…very cool.

Next was a tour around Tsintsabis. Little known fact…it’s in the middle of nowhere. Another one…9 out of 1800 people have jobs in Tsintsabis proper. Last one…some bearded guy in dirty pants loves orange soda and hanging out with tourists. It’s hot in the sun here so shade is appreciated.

The trip was finished up with my purchasing overpriced souvenirs and eating tuna fish sandwiches which I never eat, but for some reason they sounded good…they were. I realized I never purchased anything Kenyan while in Kenya so I decided to buy some stuff and at this rate I should have roughly 2 tons worth of useless crap after 6 months…hope you all like Namibian trinkets in your stockings.

Transportation in Windhoek

Windhoek has no official public transportation.  Taxis are available and cost only 7 namibian dollars which is equal to $1 US.  It doesn’t matter how far you go, still $1.  Now the catch is that they’ll often drive around and pick people up until the car is full…somehow it works.  Traveling around Namibia is another story.  There really doesn’t seem to a be an easy way to get anywhere so they have hitch hiking stations around the country.  Each distance from town to town has a set rate that anyone who has a car can charge.  The government relies on private car owners to help provide transportation…again, somehow it works.

The Journey Begins

Find myself on a plane from Johannesburg, or Jo-burg, to Windhoek, Namibia. Also find myself upgrading from the lowly seat 17A to a much more prestigious 10C…take that world.

The trip so far has been comprised of a few cat naps, some obscurely small beverages and airplanes full of people.

1. Leave Cincinnati on Saturday. Say goodbye to parents and Shannon before shooing away Shannon before having a wet face…success; however, not satisfying. Proceed to wait 30 minutes before plane arrives. Here we go again.

2. Chicago is awesome because I get to leave the airport, take a 10 min ride from one terminal to the next and arrive at another security line. Fortunately, the line does not exist this time around and I do not wait. Unfortunately, I get to wait inside the worst airport terminal, period. I ‘treat’ myself to day old yogurt and granola and receive a reply of silence when asking the clerk how her day is going…. did i mention i love Chicago?

3. 747 plane ride to London is quick. ‘I Am Legend’ and latest installment of Nicolas Cage’s overacting feature, ‘National Treasure’, help pass the time. Cheesecake is good. Mini Cokes are better. I’d like to see the mini factory some day.

4. London is awesome…especially from inside the airport for 14 hours. Savior…Yotel. Don’t let the name fool you…this no Foakley hotel…it’s pretty sweet. Little cabin, little shower, great bed…I smelled and looked like roses after a full ‘nights’ sleep and a shower. On to the brand new Terminal 5…just a couple of free train rides…they have nice trains…and I was basking in the glory that is Terminal 5.It’s wawesome! Coolest feature: automatic trays for security lines. They feed through a bottom track, you put all your stuff in one bin, and the bins are sent through automatically by a feed mechanism that moves things quickly but never allows the separate bins to touch….gotta see it to appreciate it. The Terminal is one large open area under a dome and is essentially an upscale shopping center with top tier restaurants. Thai green curry for me. I buy a tshirt. I buy some cds. So far so good. I go to my plane happy.

5. I get on plane and become unhappy. 1. Flight to JB is 10.5 hours. 2. No on demand video means if I miss the beginning I have to wait for it to start again. 3. Bulk head seating: no leg room and bags have to be up top. 4. Flight is delayed 2 hours, 1 hour 55 min 59 secs spent inside the airplane. Good news isn’t far behind though. I manage to squeak in some sleep. Don’t let this fool you because the best is yet to come. I spend the next 2 or so hours watching and enjoying ‘There Will Be Blood.’ Lucky me, we have to land. The flight attendant physically pushes my screen down as the last 5 minutes of the movie are playing…clearly didn’t trust me to turn it off…for good reason I’ll admit. Now I need someone to tell me what happened at the end so I can appreciate the deep and no doubt, meaningful message.

6. Johannesburg. Well…we wait for buses to take us to the terminal. I wait for the one clerk to hand out boarding passes to the mob at the desk. When you’re dealing with a mess of foreigners in a foreign country there will be no line…I offer $5 guarantees on this one (not really *legal note). I’m uninspired by the building and get to wait for another bus to take me to a more uninspiring 737 straight out of the 80s…yippee.

7. Fly to Windhoek and type what’s going on. Have another delicious meal of lamb cheesiness. Feel blood flow slowing after 4 airplane meals within 48 hours. As Jerry Seinfeld once so eloquently put it, why the used razor blade slot in the lavatory? Ooh, fun turbulence on the way down. More to come later…